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Post by stainrodisalegend on Oct 3, 2024 9:21:32 GMT
Have often thought transfer windows are like budgets.
They say a budget that gets cheered on the day is the one that turns out to be a disaster.
And the budget that everyone moans about is the one that ultimately turns out to be not half bad.
The Mail for example was creaming itself with excitement with the Liz Truss budget, and we all know how that went ("At LAST a Tory Budget!").
There was real optimism about the summer window at the time among almost everyone on here.
We finally seemed to have addressed the striker issue in Celar (international striker, good scoring record).
Dembele was super exciting.
Varane sounded promising albeit inexperienced.
Madsen got some of the data analytics brigade excited.
But how do we view it now, almost 10 games in?
Still very early days of course and a lot of players will surely improve.
But is it also an example of how just ditching one model that clearly doesn't work (getting old players with injury records on loans and frees with no sell on potential) and moving to the opposite extreme is a very difficult thing to pull off?
I hope I am wrong but is there a bit of Moneyball/ Football Manager about some of these Nourry signings?
The players we signed all had good stats - but often in smaller, Continental, less physical leagues.
Will they adjust to the brutality of the Championship?
Lots of foreign players make it here so this isn't me being a Little Englander saying "Buy British".
But a good Championship team needs a balance: Saitos and Dembeles for the creativity but Haydens and Colbacks for steel.
The younger players we cannot judge as the likes of Morrison were clearly bought as potential JCS/ Cook successors.
But some of the players we have paid (for us) big money who we were expecting to step up pretty quickly have been disappointing to date, lets face it. And yes I get they need time to settle.
There was a shocking stat I read on LFW that said Hull made something like 18 successful tackles to our 6. And therein lies one of our big problems this season. We made a huge number of signings but Field is still about our only player who can get hold of it in midfield - and his limitation is he then can't do much with it.
I wonder if Nourry wanted to set out a very clear stall on his CV by saying he has achieved a "Moneyball"/ Brentford style transformation in one season.
I accept I am a massive hypocrite as I have been arguing for data-driven recruitment for several seasons. But my tentative takeaway on the summer window now is that we went "all in" when we actually should have done a bit of both.
Hindsight is of course a luxury he didn't have, and even the likes of Madsen might still make me eat my words...
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Post by Corbray on Oct 3, 2024 12:16:33 GMT
i'm still fairly happy with our transfer window as there is a long term strategy there. our hands are kind of tied when it comes to signings, we don't have the money to bring in top level players and while we could have blown our budget on more morgan fox type players that doesn't really help move the club forward.
not every one of our signings will come good but hopefully some of them will. heck, it might be the case that the least likely of them will be great for us while the ones with the biggest hype flop.
it's all about time and giving the new guys games to play and hopefully they develop into good players. i was hopeful of a top half finish this season but if that doesn't happen it's no biggie as i don't think we'll be in a relegation battle. this year is a transitional one pure and simple. we have to be creative with our signings imo.
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Post by gtleighsr3 on Oct 3, 2024 12:55:45 GMT
Time is great, but when you take part in a promotion/ relegation competition it only has a very short limit.
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Post by Stanley75 on Oct 3, 2024 13:14:57 GMT
How many seasons in a row have been "transitional" or "consolidation" ones now? Sorry, I've lost count.
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901rsfandan
Bronze Seat
Repping the R's from Memphis, TN
Posts: 108
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Post by 901rsfandan on Oct 3, 2024 13:30:33 GMT
i'm still fairly happy with our transfer window as there is a long term strategy there. our hands are kind of tied when it comes to signings, we don't have the money to bring in top level players and while we could have blown our budget on more morgan fox type players that doesn't really help move the club forward. not every one of our signings will come good but hopefully some of them will. heck, it might be the case that the least likely of them will be great for us while the ones with the biggest hype flop. it's all about time and giving the new guys games to play and hopefully they develop into good players. i was hopeful of a top half finish this season but if that doesn't happen it's no biggie as i don't think we'll be in a relegation battle. this year is a transitional one pure and simple. we have to be creative with our signings imo. I am on board with this approach. My local NBA team (Grizzlies) have taken this approach with drafting young players. I'd say the "hit" rate has been 50/50. No "big time" free agent really wants to come here, so we have to be very judicial in who we draft. We look at production analytics mostly, rather than measurables (speed, height, arm length, etc.). So the result of hitting on 50% of them has paid big dividends (last season not withstanding since we had 9 guys go down with injury). We have been one of the best in the league and should be again this year. Not bad for a small market team who has to compete with the LA's, NY's, Miami's and the likes. That being said, in basketball you only need 5 "good ones", where as trying to find 11 "good ones" is a little more daunting of a task. I'd say be patient, hope a few pan out each year, and before you know it, we are playing with a stacked deck. Time is great, but when you take part in a promotion/ relegation competition it only has a very short limit. And this reason right here is the counter argument of being patient with the analytical approach. I'm glad I'm not in charge! LOL! |
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Post by alanwycombe on Oct 3, 2024 17:20:54 GMT
Time? Can you play or not? If you can’t it won’t matter what system you play in. If you can it will show immediately and you’ll soon get used to a system.
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Post by Corbray on Oct 3, 2024 18:31:55 GMT
How many seasons in a row have been "transitional" or "consolidation" ones now? Sorry, I've lost count. too many but all under the previous regime. think only the eel's time and warbs last season were seasons that weren't transitional years! we got too ambitious with the eel and completely ripped everything up when gaz came in. last season was a bit of a right off and we've had a pretty high turnover of first teamers coming into this season so it's nothing but a work in progress at this point. frustrating at times? absolutely but it is what it is. |
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Post by acricketer on Oct 3, 2024 21:41:53 GMT
Let's spend what we've got in Poundland -it's great value until you walk out of the shop.
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Post by Bill on Oct 4, 2024 15:54:43 GMT
Think its been a disaster.
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Post by James1979 on Oct 4, 2024 17:31:03 GMT
We can’t afford to get good young players in England. So, we have to go abroad as they’re cheaper with the risk that they won’t adapt to the Championship. How on earth can we be writing these new players off 2 months into the season? The issue is we’re trying to play a new style and bed new players in. Then we’re also lacking the physicality in some games either because Colback and JCS are out or Varane got sent off. It’s not football manager and you suddenly walk the league with some new players. The issue is finding the right positions to play the players not how the new players are doing.
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Post by Corbray on Oct 4, 2024 18:40:25 GMT
We can’t afford to get good young players in England. So, we have to go abroad as they’re cheaper with the risk that they won’t adapt to the Championship. How on earth can we be writing these new players off 2 months into the season? The issue is we’re trying to play a new style and bed new players in. Then we’re also lacking the physicality in some games either because Colback and JCS are out or Varane got sent off. It’s not football manager and you suddenly walk the league with some new players. The issue is finding the right positions to play the players not how the new players are doing. if it was football manager i'd highly recommend signing joe gelhardt and timi elsnik. the biggest legends ever for me on football manager. signed elsnik for my sutton team on FM20 in the NL, joe when i was in league 2. both were integral to my journey up to the prem and continued playing there. elsnik never put a foot wrong and was still a key player for me after ten seasons while joe was a reliable impact sub. |
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Post by Shania on Oct 4, 2024 19:16:29 GMT
I can take much when it comes to QPR, but not having a top forward in the team is very frustrating and definitely not a part of our DNA.
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Post by James1979 on Oct 4, 2024 22:36:19 GMT
I can take much when it comes to QPR, but not having a top forward in the team is very frustrating and definitely not a part of our DNA. Finding that forward for a price we can afford though? I think it’s practically impossible. Do we trust Marti and the do we like the type of player we’re signing? If we do, then we have to be more patient. |
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Post by Stanley75 on Oct 5, 2024 1:21:16 GMT
We can’t afford to get good young players in England. So, we have to go abroad as they’re cheaper with the risk that they won’t adapt to the Championship. How on earth can we be writing these new players off 2 months into the season? The issue is we’re trying to play a new style and bed new players in. Then we’re also lacking the physicality in some games either because Colback and JCS are out or Varane got sent off. It’s not football manager and you suddenly walk the league with some new players. The issue is finding the right positions to play the players not how the new players are doing. The voice of reason. |
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Post by stainrodisalegend on Oct 5, 2024 7:53:00 GMT
We can’t afford to get good young players in England. So, we have to go abroad as they’re cheaper with the risk that they won’t adapt to the Championship. How on earth can we be writing these new players off 2 months into the season? The issue is we’re trying to play a new style and bed new players in. Then we’re also lacking the physicality in some games either because Colback and JCS are out or Varane got sent off. It’s not football manager and you suddenly walk the league with some new players. The issue is finding the right positions to play the players not how the new players are doing. In the Championship nowadays you do need ball players so no complaints about Dembele, Saito etc but to be competitive this season you also need steel. We saw last season how fragile this lot are - couple of defeats and they crumple. Get on a bad run and who knows where it could end up, with all the knock on effects for trying to build “the project” the following season. Issue is that even with a fully fit squad there just isn’t enough steel: Cook, Field, Dunne and that’s about it. Don’t really count Coleback because most of his cards are for stupidity (kicking the ball away, arguing etc, he is only an average tackler). Genuinely hope I’m wrong but I don’t think that’s enough steel to carry the Madens and the Andersen’s on top of the Dembeles and Saitos who we do need. |
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Post by James1979 on Oct 5, 2024 8:20:54 GMT
We can’t afford to get good young players in England. So, we have to go abroad as they’re cheaper with the risk that they won’t adapt to the Championship. How on earth can we be writing these new players off 2 months into the season? The issue is we’re trying to play a new style and bed new players in. Then we’re also lacking the physicality in some games either because Colback and JCS are out or Varane got sent off. It’s not football manager and you suddenly walk the league with some new players. The issue is finding the right positions to play the players not how the new players are doing. In the Championship nowadays you do need ball players so no complaints about Dembele, Saito etc but to be competitive this season you also need steel. We saw last season how fragile this lot are - couple of defeats and they crumple. Get on a bad run and who knows where it could end up, with all the knock on effects for trying to build “the project” the following season. Issue is that even with a fully fit squad there just isn’t enough steel: Cook, Field, Dunne and that’s about it. Don’t really count Coleback because most of his cards are for stupidity (kicking the ball away, arguing etc, he is only an average tackler). Genuinely hope I’m wrong but I don’t think that’s enough steel to carry the Madens and the Andersen’s on top of the Dembeles and Saitos who we do need. Yes I fully agree with you on needing some “tough lads” but I think you can include JCS and Varane in that and Frey. The issue is that we have had injuries to Colback, JCS and Varane suspended. But there is no way we can win games with a side that includes Anderson, Madsen and then the 2 creative wide players. I hope Marti doesn’t make that mistake again. |
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Post by stainrodisalegend on Oct 5, 2024 9:10:15 GMT
In the Championship nowadays you do need ball players so no complaints about Dembele, Saito etc but to be competitive this season you also need steel. We saw last season how fragile this lot are - couple of defeats and they crumple. Get on a bad run and who knows where it could end up, with all the knock on effects for trying to build “the project” the following season. Issue is that even with a fully fit squad there just isn’t enough steel: Cook, Field, Dunne and that’s about it. Don’t really count Coleback because most of his cards are for stupidity (kicking the ball away, arguing etc, he is only an average tackler). Genuinely hope I’m wrong but I don’t think that’s enough steel to carry the Madens and the Andersen’s on top of the Dembeles and Saitos who we do need. Yes I fully agree with you on needing some “tough lads” but I think you can include JCS and Varane in that and Frey. The issue is that we have had injuries to Colback, JCS and Varane suspended. But there is no way we can win games with a side that includes Anderson, Madsen and then the 2 creative wide players. I hope Marti doesn’t make that mistake again. Hope you are right mate. Give you Frey. JCS is a v good player but not sure I would put him in the especially tough category and is quite fragile. Varane has potential for sure - at the moment for me he is neither providing enough protection or doing anything creative |
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Post by Bill on Oct 8, 2024 14:07:30 GMT
Shambolic.
Due dilligence in full no.
Waste of limited funds yes.
We have gone backwards yes.
Nourry,Cifuentes and Belk you have it so wrong.
Striker situation not addressed
Your problems,you fix it.
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Post by Bill on Oct 8, 2024 14:08:45 GMT
Dont give me this Marti is in credit crap,this is now not last season.
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Post by stainrodisalegend on Oct 8, 2024 14:18:25 GMT
Dont give me this Marti is in credit crap,this is now not last season. When you consider the amount spent, tend to agree. Still think Dembele and Saito could come good. Goalkeeper looks good. But the weak as piss central midfielders was a massive failure. Ashby at right back - no words. The youngsters might come good but obvs don't help this season. |
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Post by Tarbie on Oct 8, 2024 14:19:56 GMT
Not anywhere near as bad as you're making out in my opinion Bill. Definitely some duds in there but I think the problem is we've signed too many players that don't know the league all at the same time. If we had brought in a couple of seasoned Championship players as well I think we'd have a far better blend. Hopefully the new signings improve and we find a way to bring in a few that can add a bit of steel to the team in January.
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Post by James1979 on Oct 8, 2024 14:30:28 GMT
I get all the anger at our position and performances but to pretty much say that all these new players are rubbish and we need new ones is ridiculous. We’re stuck with these players and we’ve got to make some of them work at least. Nardi has been good. Dembele and Saito have been good in patches. I think Varane is showing improvements.
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Post by James1979 on Oct 24, 2024 4:44:10 GMT
Just wanted to see what people’s views are on this and players signed. I’m still not as negative on the signings as some. I think we have signed some good / acceptable players in Nardi, Morrison, Varane, Saito and Dembele. The issue we have wasted considerable money on 2 players in Madsen and Celar. Whoever is behind Madsen signing should be sacked. How can anyone think signing a tall centre mid who can’t tackle or head is suited to championship football. And based on estimated numbers we blew 60% of budget on 1 player. Ashby is also terrible signing especially as a loan player. Loan players have got to be significantly better than what we have or in a position we don’t have.
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Post by West Acton on Oct 24, 2024 6:26:55 GMT
My pennies worth
Nardi I like
Saito can see promise
Dembele is a dud from what I can see
Varane can see promise
Celar useless cant see him finding any form he’s in wrong league
Madsen I can see something but I think he lacks the grit for this league
Santos squad player not sure he adds anything
Morrison not seen enough of him to judge
Ashby looks really poor
So one good signing imo rest have question marks
When you see the names again I ask the question why did fans get so excited about players they had never seen or heard of. It raised expectations hrnce why the place/mood is so low now.
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Post by MattyRangers on Oct 24, 2024 6:32:09 GMT
Nardi - decent, I like him. Distinct lack of clean sheets I know but don't pin many goals on him. He has made countless great saves to keep us in games (Luton & Cov spring to mind).
Saito - again I like him. A touch lightweight & will def take some time really grasping the physicalities of the league, but seems a threat on the ball, not afraid to beat his man & quite a tenacious little fucker.
Dembele - first 2 games looked like we might have got a gem but seems to have grown steadily more anonymous in each passing game since. Jury well & truly out for me.
Varane - Tues night showed me enough to keep faith & reckon he could be a decent player. Owes us after that poxy red card. Maintaining faith he will prove an astute buy.
Celar - Less said the better. Awful bit of business.
Madsen - same as West above. Technically I like him but he really does seem a bit of a wet fart which won't work in this league.
Santos - Meh. If we rely on him starting games we are in trouble. May do a job as a sub coming on as & when for a few minutes.
Morrison - Who? lol
Ashby - Way out his depth. Offers very very little either defensively or going forward.
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Post by James1979 on Oct 24, 2024 8:30:57 GMT
I have sympathy for the Dembele signing given his record last season in League 1. It seemed like a no brainer.
Morrison looked decent in the 2 cup games he played. His injury timing along with JCS and Colback was terrible.
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Post by James1979 on Oct 24, 2024 8:33:29 GMT
Oh and Wests, I think people were excited because it was a different transfer window. We were looking outside of Uk and at young players. Some like Varane, Dembele had good reports. We can’t afford young good British players.
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Post by West Acton on Oct 24, 2024 8:49:00 GMT
Oh and Wests, I think people were excited because it was a different transfer window. We were looking outside of Uk and at young players. Some like Varane, Dembele had good reports. We can’t afford young good British players. but the excitement was not about looking somewhere else it was immediate assumption these were all great additions based on nothing or 2mins best bits you tube video. I actually approve of exploring wider pool then just England or prem team cast offs but I just wish fans would be more realistic about players before going in proclaiming them great signings as it leads to what we have now hugely inflated expectations of players and team and now disgruntled fan base calling for managers head because people believed the hype and think we are underachieving. |
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Post by stainrodisalegend on Oct 24, 2024 9:17:39 GMT
Some took issue with my point in the OP about Nourry going too "all in" on the Moneyball/ Brentford model.
Would anyone still disagree with this assertion now?
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Post by Stanley75 on Oct 24, 2024 9:18:02 GMT
Oh and Wests, I think people were excited because it was a different transfer window. We were looking outside of Uk and at young players. Some like Varane, Dembele had good reports. We can’t afford young good British players. I would add to that, it was also off the back of last season when Nourry and Marti had a lot of credit in the bank, partly based on the business they'd done in January eg Hayden, which went towards completely turning our season around. Ergo there was more trust in them re the summer signings. |
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