|
|
Post by Stanley75 on Apr 25, 2019 7:13:29 GMT
Football doesn't see star black players as top managers-to-be says Les FerdinandByDarren Lewis 22:30, 24 APR 2019 www.mirror.co.uk/sport/football/news/football-doesnt-see-star-black-14576252QPR technical director Les Ferdinand annoyed great white players still get into management far easier than black ones Les Ferdinand has called football out over its refusal to embrace the managerial qualities of black ex-pros. Former England striker Ferdinand, now technical director at Championship side Queens Park Rangers, pointed to iconic contemporaries such as Ian Wright, Des Walker and former Three Lions captains Paul Ince and Sol Campbell. Of that quartet, only Campbell is currently in management — fighting to keep Macclesfield away from the League Two relegation zone. Ince hasn't been a boss since leaving Blackpool over five years ago, while Wright and Walker have never been managers. By contrast, former Liverpool skipper Steven Gerrard got Scottish giants Rangers as a first managerial gig and Frank Lampard is pushing for the Premier League with Derby in his first crack at life on the touchline. Campbell literally had to start at the bottom — Macclesfield were last in League Two when he joined In earlier years, Mark Hughes and Bryan Robson both got top-flight jobs soon after hanging up their boots. Ferdinand tells new BT Sport documentary State of Play : “You see Steven Gerrard come to the end of his career, okay? He goes into Liverpool and does a good job [with age-group teams] and gets a job at Glasgow Rangers.
“You’ll see Frank Lampard come to the end of his career and all the media will talk about what a great manager he’s going to make.
“You’ll see Bryan Robson, you’ll see Mark Hughes, you’ll see Steve Bruce come to the end of their contracts and everybody talks about what great managers they’ll become.Gerrard is beginning managerial life in front of huge crowds in massive fixtures such as the Old Firm game “You’ll see Sol Campbell come to the end of his career, you’ll see Ian Wright, you’ll see Paul Ince come to the end of their careers. Des Walker. All had equally glowing careers — as good as the guys that I mentioned earlier. Yet no one ever talks about what great managers they’ll make.
“Until we see those players as equals, that’s the only time you’ll have change.”* State of Play, the next film in the award-winning BT Sport Films series, will premiere at 10.30pm on Wednesday May 29th on BT Sport 2.
|
|
|
|
Post by dunraven on Apr 25, 2019 7:38:55 GMT
Gerrard and Lampard probably had an interest in management so went and got their quailifications.
Are there any stats on black ex-players getting their badges and then being regularly rebuffed by potential employers? If there is a problem then by all means it should be rooted out, John Fashanu was going on about this as well but he didn't even get his UEFA badges. He did manage Fash Fc on Bravo TV after Gladiators I believe.
Wasn't Ian Wright offered a fastrack to management by FA years ago and turned it down in favour of media work?
Sol Campbell? Jesus. He thinks he is.
|
|
|
|
Post by Stanley75 on Apr 25, 2019 7:46:00 GMT
With him saying all that, Darren Moore is the only black manager in contention for our post (5th= favourite); and Warburton has now moved up to favourite.
|
|
|
|
Post by West Acton on Apr 25, 2019 7:57:04 GMT
Would guess there are plenty of ex black players who have done qualifications like Gerard and Lampard who have not been given the leg up Duns
Think part of that is the size of the players name so their high profile
|
|
|
|
Post by croydoncaptainjack on Apr 25, 2019 8:21:30 GMT
He makes a good point about the media wankfest with Lampard and Gerrard though.
|
|
|
|
Post by dunraven on Apr 25, 2019 8:44:33 GMT
Would guess there are plenty of ex black players who have done qualifications like Gerard and Lampard who have not been given the leg up Duns Think part of that is the size of the players name so their high profile True, they were always going to walk into jobs. Same could be said of Thierry Henry once he showed an interest? Got a pretty big job. Ditto Viera. Doing well by all accounts. Many people speak of Kompany having the makings of a good manager. Couldn't disagree. None of the above English/British though and jobs landed abroad. Landing one of the twenty premiership jobs is a big ask for anyone, including white English which has been well documented. So what does all of this tell us? Fuck knows. Seems to have been alot of Scottish managers in English football over the years, an over-representation to coin a phrase. Good leaders of men? Scary accent? Why is that |
|
|
|
Post by hubble on Apr 25, 2019 9:04:58 GMT
Racism is still an issue and always has been, there's no doubt about that - in society at large and probably in the various strata of football. Having said that, I have no doubt that ultimately the colour of a person's skin has little to do with their managerial qualifications - if someone who was black came along and showed they were good enough, they'd be at the level they deserved to be and I don't think Les is right when he says there's a refusal to embrace the managerial qualities of black ex-pros: I reckon if anyone good enough came to the fore they would progress like any other manager. I think endemic racism has probably held back the progress of black payers moving into management in the past, but I would expect to see that changing now.
|
|
|
|
Post by West Acton on Apr 25, 2019 9:06:49 GMT
Viera had to go to America for a job where is he now I have no idea?
|
|
|
|
Post by Tarbie on Apr 25, 2019 9:46:08 GMT
Racism is still an issue and always has been, there's no doubt about that - in society at large and probably in the various strata of football. Having said that, I have no doubt that ultimately the colour of a person's skin has little to do with their managerial qualifications - if someone who was black came along and showed they were good enough, they'd be at the level they deserved to be and I don't think Les is right when he says there's a refusal to embrace the managerial qualities of black ex-pros: I reckon if anyone good enough came to the fore they would progress like any other manager. I think endemic racism has probably held back the progress of black payers moving into management in the past, but I would expect to see that changing now. Having lived in 3 different continents and traveled to pretty much every corner of the globe, I can assure you that the UK is at the top of all the places I've been when it comes to equality. We do far more than most nations to ensure a level playing field for all sections of society. Yes, you may still come across the occasional knuckle dragger at the football that still lives in the past, but this very much the exception these days. To compare it to where I live now, 2 of the 3 leading political parties are openly racist. They literally promote policies that dictate 1 rule for 1 ethnicity, and a different rule for others. In some way this is considered justified because of the ills of the past in SA, but to me racism is racism, regardless of the justification or what part of society it's directed at. I honestly don't understand why we need to over analyse the reason there are so few people of colour in management roles in English football. I mean does the same inquisition happen when the Olympic 100 metre final, or the NBA Play-Off final is made up completely of Afro-Caribbean origin athletes? It would be far simpler in my eyes to chalk it all down to life's rich tapestry, and to simply stop talking about race. We are all human beings at the end of the day, and in the UK we live in a meritocracy where there are very few boundaries preventing anyone from trying to be what they want to be in life. In my opinion we should just let people get on with it and judge everyone on their own merits, without any consideration of skin colour. |
|
Vespa
Silver Seat
Posts: 1,078
|
Post by Vespa on Apr 25, 2019 10:11:06 GMT
Racism is still an issue and always has been, there's no doubt about that - in society at large and probably in the various strata of football. Having said that, I have no doubt that ultimately the colour of a person's skin has little to do with their managerial qualifications - if someone who was black came along and showed they were good enough, they'd be at the level they deserved to be and I don't think Les is right when he says there's a refusal to embrace the managerial qualities of black ex-pros: I reckon if anyone good enough came to the fore they would progress like any other manager. I think endemic racism has probably held back the progress of black payers moving into management in the past, but I would expect to see that changing now. Having lived in 3 different continents and traveled to pretty much every corner of the globe, I can assure you that the UK is at the top of all the places I've been when it comes to equality. We do far more than most nations to ensure a level playing field for all sections of society. Yes, you may still come across the occasional knuckle dragger at the football that still lives in the past, but this very much the exception these days. To compare it to where I live now, 2 of the 3 leading political parties are openly racist. They literally promote policies that dictate 1 rule for 1 ethnicity, and a different rule for others. In some way this is considered justified because of the ills of the past in SA, but to me racism is racism, regardless of the justification or what part of society it's directed at. I honestly don't understand why we need to over analyse the reason there are so few people of colour in management roles in English football. I mean does the same inquisition happen when the Olympic 100 metre final, or the NBA Play-Off final is made up completely of Afro-Caribbean origin athletes? It would be far simpler in my eyes to chalk it all down to life's rich tapestry, and to simply stop talking about race. We are all human beings at the end of the day, and in the UK we live in a meritocracy where there are very few boundaries preventing anyone from trying to be what they want to be in life. In my opinion we should just let people get on with it and judge everyone on their own merits, without any consideration of skin colour. Good reasoned post Tarbs ,i agree with all of it except the last paragraph . The last thing this country actually is ,is a meritocracy . You only have to look and see how few working class people of any colour are in positions of power in government and business . This country is still an old boys club ,with the Old School tie being far more important than individual merits. There is obviously the odd exception to the rule , but it is true now as much as at any time ,that the rich are getting richer . |
|
|
|
Post by BrightonR on Apr 25, 2019 10:11:17 GMT
Good post Tarbie.
Opposite of the 100m scenario is swimming, where only Eric the Eel is a household name.
Probably why Les isn’t keen on being in a minority of 1 as far as the boardrooms are concerned. 😂
|
|
|
|
Post by Tarbie on Apr 25, 2019 10:17:16 GMT
Having lived in 3 different continents and traveled to pretty much every corner of the globe, I can assure you that the UK is at the top of all the places I've been when it comes to equality. We do far more than most nations to ensure a level playing field for all sections of society. Yes, you may still come across the occasional knuckle dragger at the football that still lives in the past, but this very much the exception these days. To compare it to where I live now, 2 of the 3 leading political parties are openly racist. They literally promote policies that dictate 1 rule for 1 ethnicity, and a different rule for others. In some way this is considered justified because of the ills of the past in SA, but to me racism is racism, regardless of the justification or what part of society it's directed at. I honestly don't understand why we need to over analyse the reason there are so few people of colour in management roles in English football. I mean does the same inquisition happen when the Olympic 100 metre final, or the NBA Play-Off final is made up completely of Afro-Caribbean origin athletes? It would be far simpler in my eyes to chalk it all down to life's rich tapestry, and to simply stop talking about race. We are all human beings at the end of the day, and in the UK we live in a meritocracy where there are very few boundaries preventing anyone from trying to be what they want to be in life. In my opinion we should just let people get on with it and judge everyone on their own merits, without any consideration of skin colour. Good reasoned post Tarbs ,i agree with all of it except the last paragraph . The last thing this country actually is ,is a meritocracy . You only have to look and see how few working class people of any colour are in positions of power in government and business . This country is still an old boys club ,with the Old School tie being far more important than individual merits. There is obviously the odd exception to the rule , but it is true now as much as at any time ,that the rich are getting richer . Oh government is a whole different argument Vesps. A broken system that no longer reflects the best interests of the nation in my opinion. But, that is the case across a lot of the planet unfortunately. And of course, affluent parts of society will be born with more opportunities and more 2nd chances. But I do like to think people from any background can be whatever they want to be in the UK, if they have a talent and are driven enough. Again, that isn't universal across the world. If you are born poor in Africa you almost guaranteed to stay poor and die young. |
|
|
|
Post by Stanley75 on Apr 25, 2019 11:39:25 GMT
LF expands further with SSN: Les Ferdinand calls for clubs and countries to be banned for racismBy James Dale Last Updated: 25/04/19 11:17am www.skysports.com/football/news/11095/11702336/les-ferdinand-calls-for-clubs-and-countries-to-be-banned-for-racism Les Ferdinand tells Sky Sports News he wants football teams banned for racist abuse Football teams including Chelsea and Montenegro should be banned from competitions over racist abuse, says Les Ferdinand. The former Newcastle and England striker wants football's authorities to go a step further than Raheem Sterling's call for nine-point deductions for incidents of racist abuse and adopt a similar approach taken to stop hooliganism in the 1980s. "What did they do to English teams? They banned them for five years," Ferdinand told Sky Sports News. "Kick them out of the competition, you'll soon solve the problem."England's players were subjected to monkey chants and other racist abuse during last month's European Qualifier in Podgorica which UEFA president Aleksander Ceferin labelled as a "disaster". Montenegro were subsequently charged by UEFA with racist behaviour following the game and face a partial stadium closure. Sterling, who has backed a manifesto calling for change in how football's authorities deal with racism and discrimination, was allegedly racially abused by a Chelsea supporter last December. Racism rising in football There were 520 reports of discrimination in English football last season, according to Kick It Out's figures, an increase of 11 per cent 53 per cent of these were of racism Ferdinand insists racism is "a problem in society, not football" but said it can be eradicated from stadiums. "When I was on the pitch I'd go and score a goal, go down the tunnel, get on the coach and I'm protected," he said. "The problem is I've got a black mum and dad, black cousins, aunties and uncles who want to go to the football. Why should they be subjected to that in a stadium?
"What you need to do is ban whatever team it is from the competition.
"The people that are in charge of making these decisions have never been racially abused, so they do not understand the situation - all they do is pay lip service to it.
"We put in CCTV footage, we put security guards in to be able to eradicate these problems, that hasn't happened. So we need to go more drastic.
"The people making the decisions have never been racially abused. They may have empathy for it but they do not understand it."'I'm 52 and we're still talking about it' Only 0.5 per cent of the executive positions in football are filled by people from BAME backgrounds, according to the FARE network. The FA has said its target is to reach 16 per cent BAME employees by 2021 [from 13 per cent] and 11 per cent in leadership positions [from 5 per cent]. Ferdinand, director of football at Queens Park Rangers since 2015, revealed he experienced racist abuse from his own supporters when he appointed Jimmy Floyd Hasselbaink as manager. "I came into football when I was 19 and we were talking about a problem of racism in football, I retired at 39 and we were still talking about that problem of racism in football, I'm now 52 and we're still talking about it," said Ferdinand. Media responsibility? Ferdinand's plea to have more diversity in the boardroom extends to the media. The FA has said it supports The Times' manifesto appeal for the sports media industry to "recognise the power of its actions and tackle its own lack of diversity". "Unfortunately we talk to people like Sky every time it rears its ugly head, all the newspapers want to talk about racism in football," Ferdinand said. "But let's look beyond football and all the organisations that work off football. You've got Sky, a big part of Sky is football. A big part of TalkSPORT is football, a big part of all these industries is football.
"Sky has been in existence for 25 years now? I've not seen one black football presenter. Same as on BBC, I haven't seen one black football presenter.
"TalkSPORT had Stan Collymore presenting a football programme, but they talk about racism in sport, but they're not looking at their own industries and the same problem I'm talking about, is racism in general.
"They just talk about it in football, it's not football, it's society, Sky's society, BBC's society. Until we eradicate the problems there, don't be coming in here and shouting about it. Because the people who can control it, don't."The media response Sky Sports said: "We are committed to ensuring that we have a diverse team, both on and off-screen, that better represents the sports industry and wider society. We extensively cover incidents of discrimination across Sky Sports News including investigative reporting such as our ongoing 'Tackling Racism' series. It is an issue that we take extremely seriously and will continue to report and take action on." BBC Sport have also responded, saying: "BBC Football is proud of its approach to equality and diversity through our range of presenters, reporters and studio experts across all our weekly programmes and live broadcasts." TalkSPORT have yet to respond. |
|
|
|
Post by Rangers77 on Apr 25, 2019 11:47:25 GMT
If only Les was as effective a DoF as he is at talking politics.....
|
|
|
|
Post by Tarbie on Apr 25, 2019 11:52:19 GMT
He's gone on a bit of a rant there hasn't he Matt?
To be fair, he's totally correct with the first bit. It's about time that racist chants and comments from the terraces, or anywhere in society for that matter became a thing of the past. As a society we should have moved well beyond that by now in the West.
He does also chat some bollocks though. No black football presenters on Sky or the BBC? Off the top of my head, how about Garth Crooks, Paul Ince, John Barnes, Ian Wright, Rio Ferdinand, Chris Kamara, Dion Dublin.......in fact the list of presenters and pundits of colour could go on forever. Or is Les' argument that these guys are playing a supporting role and don't have the Des Lynam / Gary Lineker role?
|
|
|
|
Post by Stanley75 on Apr 25, 2019 12:14:43 GMT
77's comment above yours pretty much sums up my view Tarbs.
Never really got this 'people of colour' term either. I'm mean we're all people of varying shades of colour, aren't we? Black, White, Indian, Asian, Latino, Middle-Eastern etc is far simpler and inoffensive IMO.
|
|
|
|
Post by dunraven on Apr 25, 2019 12:17:18 GMT
Does this make Les virtually unsackable?
Not suggesting the reason he's saying these things is to keep his QPR job but it does, I think, put us in a bit of an awkward situation if the time came.
|
|
|
|
Post by Stanley75 on Apr 25, 2019 12:25:27 GMT
Sincerely hope not Dunny. Les has to be judged solely on the job he's done at QPR, as far as the club is concerned. What organisation is fairer than a true meritocratic one?
|
|
|
|
Post by Tarbie on Apr 25, 2019 12:26:34 GMT
77's comment above yours pretty much sums up my view Tarbs. Never really got this 'people of colour' term either. I'm mean we're all people of varying shades of colour, aren't we? Black, White, Indian, Asian, Latino, Middle-Eastern etc is far simpler and inoffensive IMO. Don't disagree mate, "People of colour", BAME etc. It's just PC nonsense isn't really? As I said above, I'd rather we were just all considered people. Here in SA they use "people of a previously disadvantaged background" quite a lot. I've actually been sat in meetings where clients have been describing the type of individuals they want me to headhunt for them, and that phrase has been used. Of course there is a bit more behind it here in SA, but it's always felt very uncomfortable for me when my search criteria includes a persons skin colour. |
|
|
|
Post by dunraven on Apr 25, 2019 13:37:20 GMT
Does this make Les virtually unsackable? Not suggesting the reason he's saying these things is to keep his QPR job but it does, I think, put us in a bit of an awkward situation if the time came. That's my problem too. There's no doubt in my mind that Les' position at QPR is untenable and we need to get rid of him, but is he likely to drag our name through the mud with accusations of racism if we act? Would like to think he wouldn't throw that one at us Old, more a case of our board being afraid of their shite given all he's been saying. Then again, alot of our decision makers are 'BAMES' aren't they? So hopefully that's not the case. There is surely a conflict of interest here though isn't there? He's saying this stuff as our DoF, not as a Kick It Out spokesman or something. His arguement, I imagine, is that given his relatively high profile position this os exactly what he should be doing. |
|
|
|
Post by Hitman34 on Apr 25, 2019 13:50:16 GMT
Decided to delete my post in case i offended some libiral muppet.
Just have one message for our advisor of football..... Fark off.
|
|
|
|
Post by hal9thou on Apr 25, 2019 14:26:45 GMT
Does this make Les virtually unsackable? If he's spinning the race thing to protect his own position, it's the smartest thing he's done in his time here. Sadly for us. |
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Apr 25, 2019 16:21:43 GMT
Could it be a ploy to get his choice of manager in place?
|
|
|
|
Post by Rangers77 on Apr 25, 2019 17:09:32 GMT
Getting sick and tired of all this virtue seeking politics, tbh. It's bad enough the football's shit..... If self regarding Guardianista like comms were a competition we'd win it by a country mile.
|
|
|
|
Post by BrightonR on Apr 25, 2019 17:50:43 GMT
Getting sick and tired of all this virtue seeking politics, tbh. It's bad enough the football's shit..... If self regarding Guardianista like comms were a competition we'd win it by a country mile. Can’t seem to view it on here but managed to see the tweet headline although the link to the site doesn’t appear to work properly. I guess Stanley has edited it. 🙊 There does seem to be a never ending desire to attempt to virtue signal wherever possible though, I’d agree. |
|
|
|
Post by Shania on Apr 25, 2019 17:51:06 GMT
Comments like these will make the job slightly more difficult for Darren Moore if he should be appointed, Imo. The opinon he is advocating is relevant enough, I think.
|
|
|
|
Post by Stanley75 on Apr 27, 2019 9:18:23 GMT
How could anyone with an ounce of pride and dignity accept a job offer in the knowledge that it was being offered to them not purely on merit? This is the whole issue with positive discrimination in my view. Where does it all end?
What's wrong with just offering the job to the person most qualified and experienced to do the role, irrespective of their skin colour? Is such a philosophy really that naive?
Assuming an employer isn't blatantly racist, the counter argument is that we all have "unconscious biases" which can affect our decision making processes in a discriminatory way. However there have been just as many studies done to disprove the very existence and premise of such concepts.
I'm open to persuasion on this subject given enough supporting evidence.
Thoughts?
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Apr 27, 2019 9:23:32 GMT
Stan. I interview and employ people in my line of work and base things on experience, attitude, ability to blend in with the rest of my team and apperance, at no stage do I condider where they are from or colour of skin just a very simple process followed that will get me the right person board.
|
|
|
|
Post by dunraven on Apr 27, 2019 10:07:01 GMT
Totally agree, Stan.
Another side to this is that say Moore for example got the job, totally on merit, he starts off knowing that many people will think it was because of his colour because our DoF has been so vociferous on the matter. He's on a hiding to nothing, I'd nearly feel sorry for him
|
|
|
|
Post by Tarbie on Apr 27, 2019 10:23:46 GMT
I've been exposed to it pretty close up mate. Here in SA, for the last 25 years companies over a certain size have been required to hit quotas based on race. As a result, people are hired and promoted for reasons other than ability and merit.
I can honestly tell you that it's destroying the country. The net result is that incompetent people in influential positions has become the norm (right up to the President). Also those that do not meet the right demographic are disenfranchised and inevitably stop trying as hard, or simply move overseas.
I see the merit in positive discrimination as a short term measure in certain situations. But on the whole it's a very dangerous route to go down.
|
|
