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Post by gtleighsr3 on Feb 2, 2023 7:45:48 GMT
I still question this "million a month" narrative until we can see the latest accounts or an accountant can corroborate it. It may well be true but I find it a shaky argument to continually pin on to justify a position. Seeing it in black and red would convince me more than an utterance out of Hoos' mouth from a fans forum some two years ago (the original source). Until then I'm reminded of the Joseph Goebbels quote "If you tell a big enough lie and keep repeating it, people will eventually come to believe it."Million a month could be the dividend they pay themselves or tax purposes ,they will have accounting whom make sure they getting the best out of this. |
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awin
Silver Seat
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Post by awin on Feb 2, 2023 10:34:31 GMT
I have started to wonder if the Beale ‘integrity’ comment wasn’t about himself but instead aimed at the board. it was a shot across the bow, when it became clear that he had been lied to and that there was not further investment, he jumped.
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Post by stainrodisalegend on Feb 2, 2023 14:02:26 GMT
I still question this "million a month" narrative until we can see the latest accounts or an accountant can corroborate it. It may well be true but I find it a shaky argument to continually pin on to justify a position. Seeing it in black and red would convince me more than an utterance out of Hoos' mouth from a fans forum some two years ago (the original source). Until then I'm reminded of the Joseph Goebbels quote "If you tell a big enough lie and keep repeating it, people will eventually come to believe it."Fair enough to question the amount Stanley and as you say we will see in the next set of published accounts. But the amounts they spent on the club and huge transfers in the early days is all on record. Think its beyond dispute that they have pumped hundreds of millions into the club (much of it wasted no doubt, but spent nonetheless). Even leaving aside FFP, if you or I had pumped in the vast fortunes they have already (probably well over half Tony's fortune in his case) would we really want to keep pumping in ever more? I think we agree there is much they cd do to run the club better (eg get a DoF fit for the 21st century) but purely in terms of spending more cash for players in this recent transfer window, would you really have done so? Genuine question. And I ask you to answer not as a fan but as an investor. |
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Post by hal9thou on Feb 2, 2023 14:49:25 GMT
I still question this "million a month" narrative until we can see the latest accounts or an accountant can corroborate it. It may well be true but I find it a shaky argument to continually pin on to justify a position. Seeing it in black and red would convince me more than an utterance out of Hoos' mouth from a fans forum some two years ago (the original source). Until then I'm reminded of the Joseph Goebbels quote "If you tell a big enough lie and keep repeating it, people will eventually come to believe it."Fair enough to question the amount Stanley and as you say we will see in the next set of published accounts. But the amounts they spent on the club and huge transfers in the early days is all on record. Think its beyond dispute that they have pumped hundreds of millions into the club (much of it wasted no doubt, but spent nonetheless). Even leaving aside FFP, if you or I had pumped in the vast fortunes they have already (probably well over half Tony's fortune in his case) would we really want to keep pumping in ever more? I think we agree there is much they cd do to run the club better (eg get a DoF fit for the 21st century) but purely in terms of spending more cash for players in this recent transfer window, would you really have done so? Genuine question. And I ask you to answer not as a fan but as an investor. Obviously there is a lot we wont see since Holdings is a private company, but I reckon for an EFL club they wont have done so badly on the rights front in recent months, and there's a nice little drink from GRFC due to be called in. But ultimately success puts arses on seats at the stadium and in the living room. And that requires investment in personnel, on the park and in the office (DoF etc). In case anyone hasn't noticed, we struggle in both departments.... |
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Post by Stanley75 on Feb 2, 2023 15:12:24 GMT
I still question this "million a month" narrative until we can see the latest accounts or an accountant can corroborate it. It may well be true but I find it a shaky argument to continually pin on to justify a position. Seeing it in black and red would convince me more than an utterance out of Hoos' mouth from a fans forum some two years ago (the original source). Until then I'm reminded of the Joseph Goebbels quote "If you tell a big enough lie and keep repeating it, people will eventually come to believe it."Fair enough to question the amount Stanley and as you say we will see in the next set of published accounts. But the amounts they spent on the club and huge transfers in the early days is all on record. Think its beyond dispute that they have pumped hundreds of millions into the club (much of it wasted no doubt, but spent nonetheless). Even leaving aside FFP, if you or I had pumped in the vast fortunes they have already (probably well over half Tony's fortune in his case) would we really want to keep pumping in ever more? I think we agree there is much they cd do to run the club better (eg get a DoF fit for the 21st century) but purely in terms of spending more cash for players in this recent transfer window, would you really have done so? Genuine question. And I ask you to answer not as a fan but as an investor. I would have Stains but that would obviously be dependent on many unknown (to me) variables too: Budget, FFP/P&S regs, who’s available, who can be sold/terminated/loaned etc. Then offset that with match-day income plus Hal’s income examples above. Again, without seeing latest accounts hard to really gauge it, which is why I question the million a month narrative. Broadly in agreement with you though. |
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Post by stainrodisalegend on Feb 2, 2023 15:28:17 GMT
Fair enough to question the amount Stanley and as you say we will see in the next set of published accounts. But the amounts they spent on the club and huge transfers in the early days is all on record. Think its beyond dispute that they have pumped hundreds of millions into the club (much of it wasted no doubt, but spent nonetheless). Even leaving aside FFP, if you or I had pumped in the vast fortunes they have already (probably well over half Tony's fortune in his case) would we really want to keep pumping in ever more? I think we agree there is much they cd do to run the club better (eg get a DoF fit for the 21st century) but purely in terms of spending more cash for players in this recent transfer window, would you really have done so? Genuine question. And I ask you to answer not as a fan but as an investor. I would have Stains but that would obviously be dependent on many unknown (to me) variables too: Budget, FFP/P&S regs, who’s available, who can be sold/terminated/loaned etc. Then offset that with match-day income plus Hal’s income examples above. Again, without seeing latest accounts hard to really gauge it, which is why I question the million a month narrative. Broadly in agreement with you though. That is fair enough. As you rightly say, it would depend on so many factors that we are just not aware of as fans. That's why I just think some fans who rant and rave at our lack of signings without knowing the full facts are out of order, even if we all do get the frustration. |
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Post by stainrodisalegend on Feb 2, 2023 15:33:38 GMT
Fair enough to question the amount Stanley and as you say we will see in the next set of published accounts. But the amounts they spent on the club and huge transfers in the early days is all on record. Think its beyond dispute that they have pumped hundreds of millions into the club (much of it wasted no doubt, but spent nonetheless). Even leaving aside FFP, if you or I had pumped in the vast fortunes they have already (probably well over half Tony's fortune in his case) would we really want to keep pumping in ever more? I think we agree there is much they cd do to run the club better (eg get a DoF fit for the 21st century) but purely in terms of spending more cash for players in this recent transfer window, would you really have done so? Genuine question. And I ask you to answer not as a fan but as an investor. Obviously there is a lot we wont see since Holdings is a private company, but I reckon for an EFL club they wont have done so badly on the rights front in recent months, and there's a nice little drink from GRFC due to be called in. But ultimately success puts arses on seats at the stadium and in the living room. And that requires investment in personnel, on the park and in the office (DoF etc). In case anyone hasn't noticed, we struggle in both departments.... Yeah I do get that, you obviously need to invest to succeed - the problem tho is investing does not guarantee success. In other words spending is a necessary but not sufficient route to success. Indeed, to date it is has led to abject failure. I run my own business - nothing like on the scale of these guys obviously - and these are problems I wrestle with every day. I go through periods of investing to increase market share - but I also go through periods where I have to cut back because its costing me more to acquire a customer than I am making on them. And that's a common problem in business, so its not a zero sum game, ie - spend money - success follows (and all this is assuming they want or are able to invest more). |
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Post by gtleighsr3 on Feb 2, 2023 15:35:10 GMT
What u sell?
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Post by shepherdsmush on Feb 2, 2023 15:37:08 GMT
I don't think anyone who supports a team that has picked up 8 points from a possible 39 and seen a strong side get knocked out of the cup can say 100% they will not get relegated but we are probably only 4 wins away from being safe.
Get this season out of the way, get the shirkers out of the club and lets see what Critch can do with a committed QPR squad
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Post by 2Loftus on Feb 2, 2023 15:39:19 GMT
I still question this "million a month" narrative until we can see the latest accounts or an accountant can corroborate it. It may well be true but I find it a shaky argument to continually pin on to justify a position. Seeing it in black and red would convince me more than an utterance out of Hoos' mouth from a fans forum some two years ago (the original source). Until then I'm reminded of the Joseph Goebbels quote "If you tell a big enough lie and keep repeating it, people will eventually come to believe it." I think that probably arose from the year before lasts' figures, which were an over £16m loss for the year, so -£1.3m a month. The following year's figures are a £4.5m a year loss, £375,000 a month loss. That difference/improvement is from player sales. Latest figures due out soon.  |
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Post by stainrodisalegend on Feb 2, 2023 17:41:21 GMT
I still question this "million a month" narrative until we can see the latest accounts or an accountant can corroborate it. It may well be true but I find it a shaky argument to continually pin on to justify a position. Seeing it in black and red would convince me more than an utterance out of Hoos' mouth from a fans forum some two years ago (the original source). Until then I'm reminded of the Joseph Goebbels quote "If you tell a big enough lie and keep repeating it, people will eventually come to believe it." I think that probably arose from the year before lasts' figures, which were an over £16m loss for the year, so -£1.3m a month. The following year's figures are a £4.5m a year loss, £375,000 a month loss. That difference/improvement is from player sales. Latest figures due out soon. Think that’s right Loftus. And the year with only 4.5m loss if memory serves is the year we sold Eze. Nothing to suggest business has improved. If anything since then we signed some big earners. But according to some these figures are a fantasy or conspiracy! |
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Post by Stanley75 on Feb 2, 2023 18:49:48 GMT
Please, and I mean this for your own mental health, get a grip fellas! As far as I know you are all grown men (and the odd woman, and for all I know maybe the odd one who prevaricates between the two) - all adults. But reading some of the comments last night I had to log off. Some sounded like they were throwing a tantrum because Father Christmas had not delivered the train set they wanted. Or its like their wife had just walked out for the poster's best friend - some were that angry. I have (schmaltzy comment alert) grown fond of all the characters on here, even when we disagree. We are all Rangers and there are plenty of great personalities (even GT). Many of them I have been chatting to for years going back to the old forum and I feel like I know many of you lot. And well done to Stanley and Brighton for finding a new home for us after the old site became impossible. But honestly, is it any wonder that the new fan who posted the other week hasn't been heard much of since? Just read some of those comments back imagining you were a prospective fan - would this seem like a fun thing to be a part of? To repeat a very obvious point I have made on a number of occasions: THERE IS NO MONEY. SO WHAT DID YOU EXPECT? The club have made that clear on many occasions. It might be due to FFP. It might be because, £400m later or whatever it is, the owners have decided it is about time it was run like a business - which means spend can't exceed revenue by any more than the million a month it is already running at. Either way, THE CLUB HAS NO MONEY FOR TRANSFERS UNLESS IT SELLS SOMEONE. That has long been the club's position and has been explained many times. Why do some fans conveniently forget this or wish it away? Why do they think we brought in Neil Critchley rather than some other Neil like Warnock? Its to develop the players we have, because we don't have a pot to piss in. Supporting a football club is meant to be a hobby - ie fun. But I struggle to understand how any fan can enjoy just repeating how angry they are with the club they love? I get you are frustrated. We all are. Tony has a lot to answer for because he has spawned a generation of Rangers fans who mistake Transfer Deadline Day for Christmas Day. Lots of clubs didn't get anyone. I think back to all those transfers when we celebrated the arrival of players like Jordan Mutch for £6m. Where is he now? For some fans (of other clubs too) obsession with transfer activity has overtaken interest in the actual football. Matches are almost an inconvenience to be got out of the way. Hunger for transfers is like taking crack cocaine, getting a momentary high ("just announce him already" - cue virtual foot stamp), then six months later complaining that this bang average player is useless: "what idiot signed this cunt?" etc. There is plenty that looks wrong about the way the club is run - I too don't understand how Les remains in post, and think we need a director of recruitment in his place who is running data on lower league players and treats it like a science. But sacking Les even if he weren't replaced would probably provide the wages for a free transfer striker for six months. Its not a game changer in terms of money saved. If you are honestly this unhappy about transfer deadline day then (and I say this regretfully, not because I want to lose fans) you should really think if supporting QPR is still working for you. Because if your expectation and demand is that every transfer window we spend a transfer fee then you are going to be very, very disappointed. We probably won't be able to next Jan transfer window either unless someone buys one of our "assets". This is the economic reality of modern QPR. If the upset that causes you is more than your love of QPR then you might honestly be better off supporting Chelsea or taking up golf, alcoholism, or dogging. Or maybe just shopping. Those who complain are just venting - they aren't offering any solution to the financial fix the club finds itself in. I know I will probably get some angry responses and people will say I'm defending the board, and they are evil etc. But I am honestly saying this for well-meaning reasons to fellow fans I like. I also struggle with it at the moment, that I admit. But endlessly moaning about it is only going to get you down, it doesn't change anything. Unless someone knows a billionaire who wants to blow his fortune (and possibly FFP rules) then this is the new reality of transfer deadline day. For what its worth this transfer window is actually an improvement on the last IMHO (we got Lowe, who is a sort-of-striker, who could be good). Last year we did get a Jan transfer deadline signing - Jeff Hendricks. How did that work out for you fellas? That new poster hasn't logged in for the last couple of weeks so suspect he's missed most of the drama anyway. TBH I actually find it all quite interesting from an anthropological perspective, and often very entertaining. As mentioned previously, I also think much of it is simply the need to spleen vent, which is actually a very healthy thing both mentally and physically. |
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Post by hal9thou on Feb 2, 2023 19:02:19 GMT
I still question this "million a month" narrative until we can see the latest accounts or an accountant can corroborate it. It may well be true but I find it a shaky argument to continually pin on to justify a position. Seeing it in black and red would convince me more than an utterance out of Hoos' mouth from a fans forum some two years ago (the original source). Until then I'm reminded of the Joseph Goebbels quote "If you tell a big enough lie and keep repeating it, people will eventually come to believe it." I think that probably arose from the year before lasts' figures, which were an over £16m loss for the year, so -£1.3m a month. The following year's figures are a £4.5m a year loss, £375,000 a month loss. That difference/improvement is from player sales. Latest figures due out soon. Not trying to make a political point here, but it must be born in mind that these figures cover the worst of the Covid disruption. |
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Post by alanwycombe on Feb 3, 2023 6:16:30 GMT
You have just destroyed the idea of a message board and replaced it with a public forum for sycophancy. 😂 Am not a sycophant for the board, I promise you Alan. Think they have royally fucked us and probably themselves. All I'm saying is given where we now are, what is the solution. I keep hearing new owners but whenever I ask who these new owners are, it goes silent. Its ironic the board are getting far more stick now when they have learned a lot of lessons and are actually running the club a bit better now (still things they could improve for sure). When they were screwing up loads of fans were very sycophantic though - because they loved all the signings! I'm fine for people moaning on a message board if it gets them through the night - just so long as they understand they aren't actually imparting any useful advice on how to improve the situation. A lot of it is just like complaining about the government because its raining. Not suggesting you are for a minute but I don’t want fans to just say ‘oh well, never mind’ I want to hear their opinions. I am realistic which is why I voted for them to stay BUT they need to get a good management team beneath them - so that’s something they could do. I’m not happy that we are clearly being lied to about a new stadium. As paying customers we are worth better than that. |
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Post by stainrodisalegend on Feb 3, 2023 11:06:13 GMT
Agree with almost all of this mate. Only thing I would question is whether we are being lied to about the stadium. When they bought the club and were spending money like it was worthless think they were genuine about wanting build one. But they were probably shocked about the price of London real estate and they went about it in an incredibly incompetent way - eg announcing they wanted to build it on the car giant site and they hadn't even secured an option to buy the land! The club's financial situation worsened, we couldn't establish ourselves in the Premier League and it became unrealistic. I personally haven't heard the owners going on about a new stadium for a few years now and its only fans who raise it as far as I'm aware (stand to be corrected). Its obvs dead in the waters never really understand why fans still discuss it like its an actual possibility. Think it would be worth someone asking Hoos what happened to his idea of renovating Loftus Rd as that was more recent and has gone quiet - but if they can't do enough to bring in way more revenue that won't fly either. Much as I would love to be able to feel my knees after a match they aren't going to spend many millions to simply make the match day experience more comfortable for those of us who will go anyway. No business would. But if for eg you could increase capacity by 10,000 say, could we sell the seats, how much would it cost, what would it bring in per season - it becomes a calculation on the ROI and we don't know the numbers.
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Post by Stanley75 on Feb 3, 2023 11:47:53 GMT
I personally haven't heard the owners going on about a new stadium for a few years now 29th October 2021 was the last update I can recall: rfantasyisland.boards.net/post/87688/thread Unless there's been anything more recent from one of the fans forums. |
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Post by stainrodisalegend on Feb 3, 2023 11:57:14 GMT
Thanks Stanley. A bit more recently than I thought then but it sounds a complete shambles - I will defend the board on some things but when it comes to building a stadium I struggle to see this lot putting up a garden shed...
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Post by alanwycombe on Feb 3, 2023 13:38:54 GMT
Agree with almost all of this mate. Only thing I would question is whether we are being lied to about the stadium. When they bought the club and were spending money like it was worthless think they were genuine about wanting build one. But they were probably shocked about the price of London real estate and they went about it in an incredibly incompetent way - eg announcing they wanted to build it on the car giant site and they hadn't even secured an option to buy the land! The club's financial situation worsened, we couldn't establish ourselves in the Premier League and it became unrealistic. I personally haven't heard the owners going on about a new stadium for a few years now and it’s only fans who raise it as far as I'm aware (stand to be corrected). It’s obvs dead in the waters never really understand why fans still discuss it like it’s an actual possibility. Think it would be worth someone asking Hoos what happened to his idea of renovating Loftus Rd as that was more recent and has gone quiet - but if they can't do enough to bring in way more revenue that won't fly either. Much as I would love to be able to feel my knees after a match they aren't going to spend many millions to simply make the match day experience more comfortable for those of us who will go anyway. No business would. But if for eg you could increase capacity by 10,000 say, could we sell the seats, how much would it cost, what would it bring in per season - it becomes a calculation on the ROI and we don't know the numbers. I did report after the last fans meeting that Hoos said he wouldn’t spend money on LR as there is no return on investment. And the reason I think he’s lying about Linford Christie is because he trots out the same old lame excuses about Hammersmith and Fulham not playing ball but won’t say what, if anything, we are doing about it. I don’t believe for a moment that this club couldn’t put together an attractive proposal to a council if they were really serious. Stan might be able to post the relevant passage here. Hoos is a corporate bullshitter. And good at it. |
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Post by stainrodisalegend on Feb 3, 2023 14:10:05 GMT
Agree with almost all of this mate. Only thing I would question is whether we are being lied to about the stadium. When they bought the club and were spending money like it was worthless think they were genuine about wanting build one. But they were probably shocked about the price of London real estate and they went about it in an incredibly incompetent way - eg announcing they wanted to build it on the car giant site and they hadn't even secured an option to buy the land! The club's financial situation worsened, we couldn't establish ourselves in the Premier League and it became unrealistic. I personally haven't heard the owners going on about a new stadium for a few years now and it’s only fans who raise it as far as I'm aware (stand to be corrected). It’s obvs dead in the waters never really understand why fans still discuss it like it’s an actual possibility. Think it would be worth someone asking Hoos what happened to his idea of renovating Loftus Rd as that was more recent and has gone quiet - but if they can't do enough to bring in way more revenue that won't fly either. Much as I would love to be able to feel my knees after a match they aren't going to spend many millions to simply make the match day experience more comfortable for those of us who will go anyway. No business would. But if for eg you could increase capacity by 10,000 say, could we sell the seats, how much would it cost, what would it bring in per season - it becomes a calculation on the ROI and we don't know the numbers. I did report after the last fans meeting that Hoos said he wouldn’t spend money on LR as there is no return on investment. And the reason I think he’s lying about Linford Christie is because he trots out the same old lame excuses about Hammersmith and Fulham not playing ball but won’t say what, if anything, we are doing about it. I don’t believe for a moment that this club couldn’t put together an attractive proposal to a council if they were really serious. Stan might be able to post the relevant passage here. Hoos is a corporate bullshitter. And good at it. Fair enough then mate you are more informed than me on this. If they think they are getting land for peanuts in west London they are deluded. Either way I think its pretty clear we are stuck with the stadium we have. Even if we got to the Premier by some miracle its questionable whether we would get a new stadium - the revenue is all about tv these days. We probably should have talked to Brentford about building a joint stadium but that ground has obvs sailed... |
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Post by alanwycombe on Feb 3, 2023 23:46:11 GMT
That would have been worth exploring but no doubt they would have thought we needed them more than they needed us given the way they’ve been run these past few years.
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