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Post by Stanley75 on Feb 28, 2023 18:33:18 GMT
Sorry, who employs the DoF and CEO? Who oversees them? Who ultimately feels the results of their work? They do. But they also seem willing to pay for it. I believe they don’t want to remove them because of the times they have been accused of getting too involved in “football” matters. There's a major difference between getting involved in football matters and making senior management fiscally accountable for their management and decision making over an 8 year period. IMO. |
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Post by Stanley75 on Feb 28, 2023 18:35:00 GMT
I’ve posted many times be careful what you wish for because at least we still have a club but Les and Co. have had long enough to ‘find’ a striker - doesn’t have to be millions, other clubs find a gem abroad - and without doing something like that we’re not going to be successful and get out of debt. The owners have recognised they can’t run a football club so have put it in the hands of management…..that can’t run a football club. Absolutely Alan. And for the umpteenth time, the evidence: rfantasyisland.boards.net/thread/2379/inside-boardroom?page=15&scrollTo=124064 |
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Post by James1979 on Feb 28, 2023 18:42:00 GMT
They do. But they also seem willing to pay for it. I believe they don’t want to remove them because of the times they have been accused of getting too involved in “football” matters. There's a major difference between getting involved in football matters and making senior management fiscally accountable for their management and decision making over an 8 year period. IMO. Yes I agree to an extent. The issue I have is that we have owners who are willing to spend money over the means of the club but within FFP. I blame solely Les and Hoos. They should both go and all they have hired. My concern with the owners is if we replace them, will we find people who will as willingly fund losses and dip into their pockets? |
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Post by stainrodisalegend on Feb 28, 2023 18:42:09 GMT
You don't accept FFP as a blocker Hal, even though this was confirmed at the fans meeting by Hoos.
But even if FFP were not a factor, I think the above numbers are pretty bloody scary. Its like you already had three mortgages on your house, you were working four jobs to pay for it and your wife turns round and says "oh but you need to invest more in a new kitchen."
I think Alan has a fair point when he says there might be someone cheap who we can develop and after all that time its an indictment on the DoF that we haven't been able to. Also agree given the bloated squad/ staff its fair to say the existing budget should have been spent much, much better.
But if your argument is regardless of the above the board should still on top of existing spend just gone out and "invested" (such an easy and misused term) in a ready made striker for x million, I fundamentally disagree
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Post by jfrabbit on Feb 28, 2023 18:43:51 GMT
Sorry, who employs the DoF and CEO? Who oversees them? Who ultimately feels the results of their work? They do. But they also seem willing to pay for it. I believe they don’t want to remove them because of the times they have been accused of getting too involved in “football” matters. So my point stands then. It lands at the feet of those at the top that sign off every single penny they spend. Terrible reading but as previously said they’ve done all this to themselves. Shambles. |
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Post by James1979 on Feb 28, 2023 18:50:33 GMT
They do. But they also seem willing to pay for it. I believe they don’t want to remove them because of the times they have been accused of getting too involved in “football” matters. So my point stands then. It lands at the feet of those at the top that sign off every single penny they spend. Terrible reading but as previously said they’ve done all this to themselves. Shambles. Not exactly. I see we can 4 types of owners, and I rank them as follows: 1) incompetent owners with no money who are not willing to fund losses. 2) competent owners but with no money to fund losses 3) incompetent owners, scared of getting involved and leaving to football people but are willing to fund losses of the club and spend within the means of FFP 4) competent owners with loads of money We have 3) above. You kick out owners I think it’s highly unlikely we end up with 4). More likely 2 but possibly 1. We need a fans forum with owners and NOT Les and Hoos. Tell them thanks for funding us. But things need to change. Remove les and hoos. Let’s get in a proper DOF and CEO with experience to cut these costs and come up with a plan. Is youth team worth it? How else should we drive revenues? Do we need so many backroom staff? Etc etc 2) |
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Post by stainrodisalegend on Feb 28, 2023 18:53:02 GMT
Good post Stainrod I never realised the extent of the debt that the club owed If it was up to the bank the club would be closed down as it is financially insolvent Would a new owner not just pay off the loans and debts though as Man Utd owe 700 million atm that the new owners will pay off when buying the club Obviously we are not Man Utd as I understand however it shows that even the biggest club in the world owes 700 million pounds If they could find a buyer I guess you are right. But its probably getting v close to the point that the debts are higher than the value of the club. The only significant asset is the ground. But even if they sold that to keep the club going they would need to build another one, which will cost more than they get for the old ground. So what is anyone actually buying? A pile of debt, a badge, some history. If I were an investor I wouldn't go near it. |
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Post by Tarbie on Feb 28, 2023 19:01:21 GMT
Basically we are operating as an insolvent business eg bankrupt Not exactly mate, we are being kept afloat by our owners. Just like 90 odd percent of professional football clubs. The concern is that progressively each season we seem to be skirting ever closer to FFP problems. |
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Post by Corbray on Feb 28, 2023 19:16:49 GMT
Isn’t the reason Ruben and Mitalls shares have increased because they personally have swallowed the clubs losses and converted the loans to shares? Ruben's shares haven't increased Sparks. They've been around 51% for the past 7 years. Mittals have increased along with Reilly coming in. Sorry I can't answer your question though. afaik ruben is converting the money he's giving to the club into more shares for himself. he's basically buying his own shares and then splitting them into even more. it devalues the stock he does have BUT if all turns out well then those shares could end up being worth more to him in the future. |
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Post by hal9thou on Feb 28, 2023 19:22:44 GMT
But if your argument is regardless of the above the board should still on top of existing spend just gone out and "invested" (such an easy and misused term) in a ready made striker for x million, I fundamentally disagree My argument is that we have invested poorly, QED. That's one thing we all agree on. The question then is, how to progress from this point on. Doing nothing, while retaining the services of high earning non playing staff who have consistently failed, is not a business option yet nevertheless prefers to be the favoured 'strategy'. The thread Stan refers to proves that it is possible to invest effectively, had we started doing this when some of us were calling for a re-think I don't think we would be in this mess now. However, that can only happen if you have a football savvy board. I think Les has been immensely damaging to the club's fortunes, yet he was appointed with no experience in the role and is now cemented in. If the current thinking remains in place, sooner or later we will be relegated. Let's see what that does to the accounts. |
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Post by Rangers77 on Feb 28, 2023 19:35:37 GMT
Tell me something in this country that isn't fucked? Shat on by Labour; shovelled up by Tories.
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Post by jfrabbit on Feb 28, 2023 19:37:22 GMT
Tell me something in this country that isn't fucked? Shat on by Labour; shovelled up by Tories. Never felt so disillusioned with politics as I am now. They’re fucking awful. Everything they’ve touched has turned to shit but that’s for another tread no doubt! |
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Post by stainrodisalegend on Feb 28, 2023 19:44:13 GMT
But if your argument is regardless of the above the board should still on top of existing spend just gone out and "invested" (such an easy and misused term) in a ready made striker for x million, I fundamentally disagree My argument is that we have invested poorly, QED. That's one thing we all agree on. The question then is, how to progress from this point on. Doing nothing, while retaining the services of high earning non playing staff who have consistently failed, is not a business option yet nevertheless prefers to be the favoured 'strategy'. The thread Stan refers to proves that it is possible to invest effectively, had we started doing this when some of us were calling for a re-think I don't think we would be in this mess now. However, that can only happen if you have a football savvy board. I think Les has been immensely damaging to the club's fortunes, yet he was appointed with no experience in the role and is now cemented in. If the current thinking remains in place, sooner or later we will be relegated. Let's see what that does to the accounts. If you are now saying we should stick within existing budgets and spend more wisely then we are in total agreement. I have been questioning the value of the youth set up, Les (tho I do think we need a DoF - just one qualified to do the job) etc for a v long time. Admit tho to being genuinely shocked to see how bloated our staff was compared to another comparable clubs thanks to a post on here (think Millwall was the example given). |
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Post by West Acton on Feb 28, 2023 20:57:43 GMT
The obsession with Les and Hoos is a mere smoke mirror and whilst fans obsess on these two nothing will improve. The problem is way bigger than these two the problem is the owners and their decision making.
Great move on Les and Hoos what changes?? No matter who the DOF or CEO is until the owners sort themselves out nothing changes, even if you have the right people in principle it will continue.
We have knee jerk owners who don’t know their arse from their elbow. It’s them who hold the key to success no one else. I fear they think a training ground, whilst its progress, is the answer to everything and it’s not.
Les and Hoos or any future replacements operate at the request/will of the owners. Whilst they have no understanding of what needs to happen or a proper strategy it will be emperor in new clothing.
Need focus anger elsewhere and try influence Ownets to change their ways.
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Post by 1973ranger on Feb 28, 2023 21:26:50 GMT
The obsession with Les and Hoos is a mere smoke mirror and whilst fans obsess on these two nothing will improve. The problem is way bigger than these two the problem is the owners and their decision making. Great move on Les and Hoos what changes?? No matter who the DOF or CEO is until the owners sort themselves out nothing changes, even if you have the right people in principle it will continue. We have knee jerk owners who don’t know their arse from their elbow. It’s them who hold the key to success no one else. I fear they think a training ground, whilst its progress, is the answer to everything and it’s not. Les and Hoos or any future replacements operate at the request/will of the owners. Whilst they have no understanding of what needs to happen or a proper strategy it will be emperor in new clothing. Need focus anger elsewhere and try influence Ownets to change their ways. No obsession just a question why is our DOF on PL.wages? He joined when Redknapp was here and if memory serves me right blocked the transfer of Defoe. First of many exceptuonally poor decisions made by the man. |
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Post by sparks on Feb 28, 2023 21:34:13 GMT
The obsession with Les and Hoos is a mere smoke mirror and whilst fans obsess on these two nothing will improve. The problem is way bigger than these two the problem is the owners and their decision making. Great move on Les and Hoos what changes?? No matter who the DOF or CEO is until the owners sort themselves out nothing changes, even if you have the right people in principle it will continue. We have knee jerk owners who don’t know their arse from their elbow. It’s them who hold the key to success no one else. I fear they think a training ground, whilst its progress, is the answer to everything and it’s not. Les and Hoos or any future replacements operate at the request/will of the owners. Whilst they have no understanding of what needs to happen or a proper strategy it will be emperor in new clothing. Need focus anger elsewhere and try influence Ownets to change their ways. That’s why some of us have been saying we need new owners.It’s too easy for some to just blame DOF and Hoos and then exonerate owners from the mess that the club is in just because they pay the debts. Ruben is the CEO of his parents shipping Port business in Malaysia and would be more than aware of what Hoos responsibilities should be. The role that Ferdinand has played for the last 8 years can’t possibly have gone unnoticed by any of the owners despite them choosing to ignore it, in any other business it would be classed as negligence. |
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Post by Stanley75 on Feb 28, 2023 21:46:21 GMT
The obsession with Les and Hoos is a mere smoke mirror and whilst fans obsess on these two nothing will improve. The problem is way bigger than these two the problem is the owners and their decision making. Great move on Les and Hoos what changes?? No matter who the DOF or CEO is until the owners sort themselves out nothing changes, even if you have the right people in principle it will continue. We have knee jerk owners who don’t know their arse from their elbow. It’s them who hold the key to success no one else. I fear they think a training ground, whilst its progress, is the answer to everything and it’s not. Les and Hoos or any future replacements operate at the request/will of the owners. Whilst they have no understanding of what needs to happen or a proper strategy it will be emperor in new clothing. Need focus anger elsewhere and try influence Ownets to change their ways. That’s why some of us have been saying we need new owners.It’s too easy for some to just blame DOF and Hoos and then exonerate owners from the mess that the club is in just because they pay the debts. Ruben is the CEO of his parents shipping Port business in Malaysia and would be more than aware of what Hoos responsibilities should be. The role that Ferdinand has played for the last 8 years can’t possibly have gone unnoticed by any of the owners despite them choosing to ignore it, in any other business it would be classed as negligence. Which is why, to most on here, the recent interview with Amit and Ruben with Morrissey asking the questions was embarrassing considering the elephant in the room went unaddressed. The club, in effect, would have been better off not bothering with the interview at all as it appears a PR exercise was their main motive for doing it. |
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Post by hal9thou on Feb 28, 2023 22:16:38 GMT
My argument is that we have invested poorly, QED. That's one thing we all agree on. The question then is, how to progress from this point on. Doing nothing, while retaining the services of high earning non playing staff who have consistently failed, is not a business option yet nevertheless prefers to be the favoured 'strategy'. The thread Stan refers to proves that it is possible to invest effectively, had we started doing this when some of us were calling for a re-think I don't think we would be in this mess now. However, that can only happen if you have a football savvy board. I think Les has been immensely damaging to the club's fortunes, yet he was appointed with no experience in the role and is now cemented in. If the current thinking remains in place, sooner or later we will be relegated. Let's see what that does to the accounts. If you are now saying we should stick within existing budgets and spend more wisely then we are in total agreement. I don't know what the existing budget is, I only know that sticking to it has achieved a loss making stasis. At best, since we now appear to be in freefall. I've never advocated a lottery winner in Harrods approach to doing business, we've tried that, but there is a middle ground between doing that and doing nothing. If we don't find that ground soon, we'll loose even more money. |
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Post by stainrodisalegend on Feb 28, 2023 22:29:09 GMT
If you are now saying we should stick within existing budgets and spend more wisely then we are in total agreement. I don't know what the existing budget is, I only know that sticking to it has achieved a loss making stasis. At best, since we now appear to be in freefall. I've never advocated a lottery winner in Harrods approach to doing business, we've tried that, but there is a middle ground between doing that and doing nothing. If we don't find that ground soon, we'll loose even more money. You can see the budget in the accounts. You are changing your argument. Your previous post said your problem was how this vast amount of money was spent. Now you have gone back to saying they need to spend more, albeit modestly. Hoos has already confirmed we can't spend more due to FFP. And these accounts show we are already spending an absolute fortune. Bailing the club out by £2m a month is hardly "doing nothing". We are fucked. But spending even more money would just make us even more fucked with a monumental FFP fine. And that's even if the owners did want to throw even more money at it. |
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Post by stainrodisalegend on Feb 28, 2023 22:30:02 GMT
The obsession with Les and Hoos is a mere smoke mirror and whilst fans obsess on these two nothing will improve. The problem is way bigger than these two the problem is the owners and their decision making. Great move on Les and Hoos what changes?? No matter who the DOF or CEO is until the owners sort themselves out nothing changes, even if you have the right people in principle it will continue. We have knee jerk owners who don’t know their arse from their elbow. It’s them who hold the key to success no one else. I fear they think a training ground, whilst its progress, is the answer to everything and it’s not. Les and Hoos or any future replacements operate at the request/will of the owners. Whilst they have no understanding of what needs to happen or a proper strategy it will be emperor in new clothing. Need focus anger elsewhere and try influence Ownets to change their ways. That’s why some of us have been saying we need new owners.It’s too easy for some to just blame DOF and Hoos and then exonerate owners from the mess that the club is in just because they pay the debts. Ruben is the CEO of his parents shipping Port business in Malaysia and would be more than aware of what Hoos responsibilities should be. The role that Ferdinand has played for the last 8 years can’t possibly have gone unnoticed by any of the owners despite them choosing to ignore it, in any other business it would be classed as negligence. How we going to change owners? Who would buy us? |
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Post by sparks on Feb 28, 2023 22:39:26 GMT
That’s why some of us have been saying we need new owners.It’s too easy for some to just blame DOF and Hoos and then exonerate owners from the mess that the club is in just because they pay the debts. Ruben is the CEO of his parents shipping Port business in Malaysia and would be more than aware of what Hoos responsibilities should be. The role that Ferdinand has played for the last 8 years can’t possibly have gone unnoticed by any of the owners despite them choosing to ignore it, in any other business it would be classed as negligence. How we going to change owners? Who would buy us? How many times would that question have been asked since Jim Gregory left, it’s all conjecture saying who would buy us. it’s the same as not going to hospital for an operation because your scared of the consequences. |
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Post by James1979 on Feb 28, 2023 23:18:37 GMT
The obsession with Les and Hoos is a mere smoke mirror and whilst fans obsess on these two nothing will improve. The problem is way bigger than these two the problem is the owners and their decision making. Great move on Les and Hoos what changes?? No matter who the DOF or CEO is until the owners sort themselves out nothing changes, even if you have the right people in principle it will continue. We have knee jerk owners who don’t know their arse from their elbow. It’s them who hold the key to success no one else. I fear they think a training ground, whilst its progress, is the answer to everything and it’s not. Les and Hoos or any future replacements operate at the request/will of the owners. Whilst they have no understanding of what needs to happen or a proper strategy it will be emperor in new clothing. Need focus anger elsewhere and try influence Ownets to change their ways. Completely disagree. They are no longer “knee jerk” and have left the decisions to CEO ans DOF. These 2 come up with plan for owners to approve. Not the other way round. The owners pay for the plan. Every company in the world is run by the executive board which is CEO, CFO and operations. For us that’s CEO and DOF. The owners have little involement. Maybe twice a year to approve budgets. Les and Hoos have failed in everything, their plan for youth has failed at great expense. |
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Post by James1979 on Feb 28, 2023 23:34:24 GMT
Our wage bill is £27m!! We have 40 more staff than Millwall and 136 players and coaches. That is only down to the CEO and DOF. We have too many coaches and too many players. We also have too many average and poor players and coaches.
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Post by Tarbie on Mar 1, 2023 4:28:11 GMT
Any decent CFO would look at those accounts and say we have no option but to make some people redundant in my opinion.
Start from the top. Restructure the lot under someone capable of building a more efficient workforce.
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Post by Greg1882 on Mar 1, 2023 5:08:32 GMT
Our wage bill is £27m!! We have 40 more staff than Millwall and 136 players and coaches. That is only down to the CEO and DOF. We have too many coaches and too many players. We also have too many average and poor players and coaches. Jobs for the boys. Always has been. The people calling the shots at the top need to fuck these cowboys off. They need to shelve the academy which produces nothing and move on with the b team model where we pick up players others have discarded like eze, shine them up and sell them on. The b team is a decent idea but as far as an academy goes that drains resource, returns nothing and more importantly if you do find something other cat a’s can take off your hands for next to fuck all makes it an unsustainable model in our current state. Why these fucking morons can’t see that I really don’t know |
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Post by alanwycombe on Mar 1, 2023 6:31:31 GMT
Could do worse than have Greg as DOF……
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Post by Tarbie on Mar 1, 2023 7:40:37 GMT
The academy is a joke. Kakay is the only genuine academy player anywhere near the first team. What we have occasionally been good at is picking up rough diamonds and turning them into first team players over time. As stated by a few prior posters, we'd do better to focus on that and try to save some money.
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Post by Stanley75 on Mar 1, 2023 8:40:34 GMT
Agree with the comments about the academy being unsustainable but where would that leave Heston (which still has another year of construction works to go?)
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Post by alanwycombe on Mar 1, 2023 9:18:08 GMT
Stadium anyone?
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Post by West Acton on Mar 1, 2023 9:53:12 GMT
Agree with the comments about the academy being unsustainable but where would that leave Heston (which still has another year of construction works to go?) can still have a youth set up and try and grow your own just do it without the academy bells and whistles |
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