|
|
Post by Stanley75 on Nov 23, 2019 21:26:06 GMT
What did passing out have to do with either of the goals last night It had EVERYTHING to do with the 2nd goal. And yes you're right about Lumley's crap kicking BUT the lead up to his kick out was totally down to the MW's system of playing out from the back. If you can't see that mate then watch the replay and observe everything that lead up to his misplaced kick, i.e. the pressure the system puts him under. |
|
|
|
Post by Tarbie on Nov 24, 2019 6:47:18 GMT
What did passing out have to do with either of the goals last night It had EVERYTHING to do with the 2nd goal. And yes you're right about Lumley's crap kicking BUT the lead up to his kick out was totally down to the MW's system of playing out from the back. If you can't see that mate then watch the replay and observe everything that lead up to his misplaced kick, i.e. the pressure the system puts him under. Exactly mate. The whole system puts the defenders and keeper under undue pressure. Westy, watch the game back. A number of times we played the ball back to the keeper from attacking positions cheaply. Then instead of trying to get the ball back in Fulham's half swiftly, we started slowly building from the back. It's ridiculous, just giving up yards on the pitch unnecessarily and putting our defenders under pressure. Then compound this by asking players that aren't particularly talented with the ball at their feet (our keeper, basically all our central defenders, and add Scowen to that list too) to knock the ball around whilst under pressure. It's total kamikaze football. We also hold such a high line. A very dangerous tactic when we have zero pace amongst our central defenders. This is a factor in why we've given away a lot of penalties. Look, I'm glad to see a bit of attacking intent and desire to play good football, it just needs to be tempered a bit. We need to focus on ensuring are defenders are defending properly first and foremost. Forget trying to coach them to play total football, Warburton should have them practicing defending set pieces at the moment. And there shouldn't be any shame about putting your foot through the ball when its required. Not talking about the hoofball we played at times when Matt Smith was here, just a willingness to get rid when you have to. |
|
|
|
Post by West Acton on Nov 24, 2019 7:46:41 GMT
I’ve seen the replay he controls the ball badly panics and miss kicks the ball. In my opinion that’s nothing to do with passing out its poor technique from control then then kick
My feeling on Lumley now and it upsets me to say this is that he’s on a par with Green. Just waiting for the mistake each game. This is his third season and he’s been costing us goals all three of them. Had hoped to start he's young and decent shot stopper but the more I watch his feet more I think cut losses.
No one is answering question really on how many goals have been Caused from passing which justifies the reaction of ditching it.
We have conceded 32 goals I would say two are from over playing (Luton at home snd Bristol city away). Is two goals getting caught passing any worse then any other team?? Is it enough to say throw the baby out with the bath water?? Am I being conservative saying two?
We have been awful at the back, we’re all in agreement but I really struggle to see how manning being shit defending letting ball come in and back three once ball goes in letting strikers have free headers etc has anything to do with style of play. Are we suggesting if we did pass it like Man City manning suddenly starts closing his man down and stopping ball coming in and Hall and BFG get in front of their men??
So we change the style we keep conceding (as we have not addressed the defence problem we have changed style) then what?
|
|
|
|
Post by West Acton on Nov 24, 2019 7:52:00 GMT
So a high line is defensive issue!!!! Your making my point, especially when we have back line which lacks pace
As for going back to keeper yes we do, think every side does, it’s called possession football the alternative to not going back is playing long, that is Ollie football.
|
|
|
|
Post by West Acton on Nov 24, 2019 7:59:55 GMT
You raise good point on set pieces Tarbs was going mention this Friday. From an attacking perspective our corners, throws and free kicks never really come to anything. What is really bugging me is this insistence on the short corner drives me mad
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Nov 24, 2019 8:15:21 GMT
Pretty football is all good and well but dropping down the table is not. No improvement defensively and this playing out from the back with lumley in goal is suicidal so this manager needs to coach these defenders to defend the goal and to do the basics right. Think he is too stubborn to alter his way of thinking which ultimately will cost him his job as you cannot gift a goal away every single game.
|
|
|
|
Post by West Acton on Nov 24, 2019 8:27:12 GMT
Would be tempted recall Deng
|
|
|
|
Post by alanwycombe on Nov 24, 2019 8:39:20 GMT
I’ve seen the replay he controls the ball badly panics and miss kicks the ball. In my opinion that’s nothing to do with passing out its poor technique from control then then kick My feeling on Lumley now and it upsets me to say this is that he’s on a par with Green. Just waiting for the mistake each game. This is his third season and he’s been costing us goals all three of them. Had hoped to start he's young and decent shot stopper but the more I watch his feet more I think cut losses. No one is answering question really on how many goals have been Caused from passing which justifies the reaction of ditching it. We have conceded 32 goals I would say two are from over playing (Luton at home snd Bristol city away). Is two goals getting caught passing any worse then any other team?? Is it enough to say throw the baby out with the bath water?? Am I being conservative saying two? We have been awful at the back, we’re all in agreement but I really struggle to see how manning being shit defending letting ball come in and back three once ball goes in letting strikers have free headers etc has anything to do with style of play. Are we suggesting if we did pass it like Man City manning suddenly starts closing his man down and stopping ball coming in and Hall and BFG get in front of their men?? So we change the style we keep conceding (as we have not addressed the defence problem we have changed style) then what? I have answered your point several times mate, it's not about whether or not we concede directly due to playing out but not being good enough at it or comfortable on the ball doing it has affected their game and they are now worse defenders because of it. BFG looks a monster when he's winning it but looks a twat when he tries to pass for example. They don't concentrate on defending properly any more hence the free headers in our box. |
|
|
|
Post by Brian Wilson on Nov 24, 2019 8:45:10 GMT
Would be tempted recall Deng Unfortunately he is possibly more error prone than any of our keepers |
|
|
|
Post by Brian Wilson on Nov 24, 2019 8:48:59 GMT
Lumley kick definitely looked like an attempted pass to me. I think he is a good keeper that could be ruined by an insistence on always trying to play out from the back. On the other hand, he should know when to put his foot through it when needed and hopefully point to clean sheets afterwards. Warbs isn't gonna drop him if we stop conceding.
|
|
|
|
Post by Tarbie on Nov 24, 2019 8:50:53 GMT
The point is Westy that we are constantly putting ourselves in a position to make these defensive errors. It's a simple numbers game isn't it? The longer you have the ball at a defender or goalkeepers feet, the more you increase your chances of a costly individual error happening.
I'm not saying resort to hoof ball. What I'm saying is we need to dither on the ball at the back less, we need sacrifice a little in terms of possession in favour of passing the ball in a little more direct a fashion, and above all else we need to let our footballers do the footballing and allow our defenders to get their attention back to defending.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Nov 24, 2019 8:53:43 GMT
The point is Westy that we are constantly putting ourselves in a position to make these defensive errors. It's a simple numbers game isn't it? The longer you have the ball at a defender or goalkeepers feet, the more you increase your chances of a costly individual error happening. I'm not saying resort to hoof ball. What I'm saying is we need to dither on the ball at the back less, we need sacrifice a little in terms of possession in favour of passing the ball in a little more direct a fashion, and above all else we need to let our footballers do the footballing and allow our defenders to get their attention back to defending. The above is down totally to the managers stubborness to play this way and this way only. Coach the defenders to defend then coach them to play out. We have ball players further up the field so do not need one in goal |
|
|
|
Post by West Acton on Nov 24, 2019 8:53:53 GMT
Not a subject we’re going agree on fellas we’re on different spectrums all about opinions
|
|
|
|
Post by hal9thou on Nov 24, 2019 10:30:24 GMT
Also, we've been sussed. Managers know they can get at us because we're not comfortable. Second half last night for example. Course they do. This reminds me of Ollie's intransigence re set up. Different football set up, same dinosaur mindset. This is what happens: COMFORTABLE ON BALL PRESS THEIR BALL CONCEDE LOOSE CONFIDENCE LESS COMFORTABLE ON BALL DROP DEEPER SO NO PRESS CONCEDE You end up not playing good posession ball because you're conceding. Vicious Circle. Suicide by installments. |
|
|
|
Post by Shania on Nov 24, 2019 11:23:48 GMT
What I don`t get is why he is so reluctant to play it just a bit different in patches when we look like conceding every minute? It`s almost like we can feel a goal coming against. Make no mistake about it, I like what he is trying to do, and I hope we can get a few new players in during the January window,..players who are comfortable with the ball at their feet, but we need all the points we can get, and the players don`t need their confidence getting shattered.
|
|
|
|
Post by Stanley75 on Nov 24, 2019 11:27:27 GMT
I’ve seen the replay he controls the ball badly panics and miss kicks the ball. In my opinion that’s nothing to do with passing out its poor technique from control then then kick That reads like you've not understood my post mate. Again: What did passing out have to do with either of the goals last night It had EVERYTHING to do with the 2nd goal. And yes you're right about Lumley's crap kicking BUT the lead up to his kick out was totally down to the MW's system of playing out from the back. If you can't see that mate then watch the replay and observe everything that lead up to his misplaced kick, i.e. the pressure the system puts him under. Lumley's poor kicking is a separate issue which we are agreed about, so we can put that debate aside. The issue here is the system he's being asked to play in - which was directly the cause of the 2nd goal we conceded. Again we are also in agreement that there's been much poor defending this season, but again that is a separate issue to the system they're being instructed to play in which has been the cause of far more than two conceded goals this season. IOW play a less risky game in which you clearly lack the players to execute such an approach, and you will instantly minimize your risk of conceding these goals. Furthermore (and as others have already pointed out), this in no way equates to hoofball being the alternative. |
|
|
|
Post by esoxlucius on Nov 24, 2019 11:35:55 GMT
The club have clearly stated that are going to continue with playing it out from the back as it those type of players that command the best transfer fees. They aren't going to change horses in mid stream because the players aren't good enough yet. The whole club from the U10's onwards is geared up to play this way and it isn't going to change. For a team that many expected to get relegated we are doing much better than expected and we will be losing more games between now and the end of the season. MW isn't singling players out in public because it is detrimental to their confidence; the fans could do the same. Suport them no matter how the game is going and come back and do it again.
|
|
|
|
Post by Tarbie on Nov 24, 2019 11:54:43 GMT
The club have clearly stated that are going to continue with playing it out from the back as it those type of players that command the best transfer fees. They aren't going to change horses in mid stream because the players aren't good enough yet. The whole club from the U10's onwards is geared up to play this way and it isn't going to change. For a team that many expected to get relegated we are doing much better than expected and we will be losing more games between now and the end of the season. MW isn't singling players out in public because it is detrimental to their confidence; the fans could do the same. Suport them no matter how the game is going and come back and do it again. I think most are still supportive. There are a few that seem on the brink of calling for the manager's head, but they are very much in the minority. The frustration for me Esox (and I think a few others on here), is that I feel it would only really take a few tweaks to get the best out of this team. We are not talking about a complete change of mentality. Just a willingness to play a slightly less risky brand of football, and focus on playing our flowing football in the opposition half a bit more. I personally can't understand why a balance can't be found! |
|
|
|
Post by Shania on Nov 24, 2019 12:01:14 GMT
The club have clearly stated that are going to continue with playing it out from the back as it those type of players that command the best transfer fees. They aren't going to change horses in mid stream because the players aren't good enough yet. The whole club from the U10's onwards is geared up to play this way and it isn't going to change. For a team that many expected to get relegated we are doing much better than expected and we will be losing more games between now and the end of the season. MW isn't singling players out in public because it is detrimental to their confidence; the fans could do the same. Suport them no matter how the game is going and come back and do it again. I hope the Board will support MW in the transfer Window. We need players who can play his system. Lumley has to be replaced. Leinstner also. IMO, that is. |
|
|
|
Post by esoxlucius on Nov 24, 2019 12:01:46 GMT
The club have clearly stated that are going to continue with playing it out from the back as it those type of players that command the best transfer fees. They aren't going to change horses in mid stream because the players aren't good enough yet. The whole club from the U10's onwards is geared up to play this way and it isn't going to change. For a team that many expected to get relegated we are doing much better than expected and we will be losing more games between now and the end of the season. MW isn't singling players out in public because it is detrimental to their confidence; the fans could do the same. Suport them no matter how the game is going and come back and do it again. I think most are still supportive. There are a few that seem on the brink of calling for the manager's head, but they are very much in the minority. The frustration for me Esox (and I think a few others on here), is that I feel it would only really take a few tweaks to get the best out of this team. We are not talking about a complete change of mentality. Just a willingness to play a slightly less risky brand of football, and focus on playing our flowing football in the opposition half a bit more. I personally can't understand why a balance can't be found! The trouble is if those tweaks involve a change of system then it isn't going to happen. As I said elsewhere; if passing out from the back isn't working then they will continue to pass out from the back until it does. For the next few seasons I am going to just turn up to support the team, cheer as loud and as long as I can and let any frustration go on the journey home. Rinse and repeat ad nauseum. |
|
|
|
Post by alanwycombe on Nov 24, 2019 12:02:46 GMT
Yet? How long then? I've seen enough to think they never will be for this method.
|
|
|
|
Post by alanwycombe on Nov 24, 2019 12:09:31 GMT
I think most are still supportive. There are a few that seem on the brink of calling for the manager's head, but they are very much in the minority. The frustration for me Esox (and I think a few others on here), is that I feel it would only really take a few tweaks to get the best out of this team. We are not talking about a complete change of mentality. Just a willingness to play a slightly less risky brand of football, and focus on playing our flowing football in the opposition half a bit more. I personally can't understand why a balance can't be found! The trouble is if those tweaks involve a change of system then it isn't going to happen. As I said elsewhere; if passing out from the back isn't working then they will continue to pass out from the back until it does. For the next few seasons I am going to just turn up to support the team, cheer as loud and as long as I can and let any frustration go on the journey home. Rinse and repeat ad nauseum. I really resent the inference that anyone with a critical opinion doesn't support the team. Everyone else is debating the points raised sensibly. The hardcore will always be here but the less enthusiastic will vote with their feet and where will that get us? |
|
|
|
Post by esoxlucius on Nov 24, 2019 12:09:53 GMT
Yet? How long then? I've seen enough to think they never will be for this method. I am thinking 3-4 seasons. If they need to sell players to survive financially then I can't see them changing anything now; it would be akin to prepping your car for a race by tuning the engine and gearbox then giving up because you lost a few shakedown races so you're not going to bother with the suspension and brakes. With the players we have it is a minor miracle that we are where we are, give it a few seasons where we have some money to play with and we could become a decent side. Pragmatism is what is required for a while now not kneejerks. |
|
|
|
Post by esoxlucius on Nov 24, 2019 12:11:32 GMT
The trouble is if those tweaks involve a change of system then it isn't going to happen. As I said elsewhere; if passing out from the back isn't working then they will continue to pass out from the back until it does. For the next few seasons I am going to just turn up to support the team, cheer as loud and as long as I can and let any frustration go on the journey home. Rinse and repeat ad nauseum. I really resent the inference that anyone with a critical opinion doesn't support the team. Everyone else is debating the points raised sensibly. The hardcore will always be here but the less enthusiastic will vote with their feet and where will that get us? My sensible point is that the club are NOT going to change their style any time soon. Get used to how it is. |
|
|
|
Post by alanwycombe on Nov 24, 2019 12:13:52 GMT
Get used to losing? Let me think about that for a nanosecond....
|
|
|
|
Post by Stanley75 on Nov 24, 2019 12:18:53 GMT
MW isn't singling players out in public because it is detrimental to their confidence That's a red herring argument I'm afraid Esox as their confidence already looks shot - that much is clear from the last six games. And the longer you persist with an approach that you don't have the personnel to execute then the more their confidence will be drained. So you're far better off tweaking the system without sacrificing principles. It's the sensible and logical thing to do when a system is so obviously not working. |
|
|
|
Post by esoxlucius on Nov 24, 2019 12:19:04 GMT
Get used to losing? Let me think about that for a nanosecond.... Your words not mine. We have won as many games as we have lost. I guess if you focus on the negatives then that is all that you will see. For a team that has Manning as the most expensive signing at £61k I think we are doing fucking great this season. |
|
|
|
Post by West Acton on Nov 24, 2019 12:19:34 GMT
The trouble is if those tweaks involve a change of system then it isn't going to happen. As I said elsewhere; if passing out from the back isn't working then they will continue to pass out from the back until it does. For the next few seasons I am going to just turn up to support the team, cheer as loud and as long as I can and let any frustration go on the journey home. Rinse and repeat ad nauseum. I really resent the inference that anyone with a critical opinion doesn't support the team. Everyone else is debating the points raised sensibly. The hardcore will always be here but the less enthusiastic will vote with their feet and where will that get us? is a bit flip flop in fairness We were used to losing under JFH Ollie and Macca playing dreadful football. Plenty demanded change and better football but seems they have not held there nerve and want revert to same old same old. |
|
|
|
Post by West Acton on Nov 24, 2019 12:20:47 GMT
I actually think what is lacking is little bit game management. Time to pass it And a time to launch it
|
|
|
|
Post by alanwycombe on Nov 24, 2019 12:29:52 GMT
Not negative, realistic. You honestly think we'd have "3-4 seasons" at this level playing like we do? The point I make, and some others seem to agree, is that we would defend better with our current players if they weren't being asked to do something they aren't comfortable with. Rangel, Hall, BFG, Cameron - all gone backwards. That's not developing players.
|
|
